Is it necessary to suffer in order to evolve spiritually?

(09-22-2019, 09:28 AM)Witashnah Wrote: Thanks so much for your response Krisnadaoist

I find your posts really deep and requires careful reading. I've come across your writing style before from one other person and it requires you to read it at a different level.
When read carefully you really put the concepts out there in a really eloquent manner and I agree with all you say. Forgive my writing style as I am very new to sharing my own thoughts on forums in general and as you can imagine trying to put spiritual concepts into words can be really difficult, as to explain it all properly really requires alot of methodical thinking and a really good understanding of how to get it all down while also making sense to others.

I absolutely loved where you say "suffering can teach and karma can lead".  I also found "neither neglecting the left nor the right", which I believe is referring to us needing to live in balance. I found it quite eye opening how you brought suffering and Karma together for me as that was definitely not a perspective I had.

Thanks again for your post as it really deepened my understanding of some of these concepts and you really went into alot of depth there.

Taking this thread maybe a bit further I've also heard of the concepts of natural law. Karmic law maybe being one of those laws? I've tried searching for more information on this. Any insight on this too will be appreciated.

Love and light

Yes Karma Is A Natural Law; And Whereas it is Ever Existing; It Can Be Tamed. Altho Taming it Takes Eons in Efforts; it Consists of Ridding oneself of Bad Deeds Like Sin's That Halter in the Body And Thereby of Mind. That Karma, By Law BySets ReinCarNation into A ProPer; PrOperly Set Body, New in the RelAtion of Karma, Natural Law's ItSelf. This is For if A Decore is Missing in One's Home; The Home is As it THen is Set By Decore.

Nothing Can Be Said UNLESS Matter is Switched Out; It Will Be As it is Apprehened Off; ReAlity.

Karma is A Natuiral Law of Reality; And Tho Some Live in There Own Reality; The Laws of Death Put All into Grave And StOne, Thereby Decay Will Take over The Body And the Soul, By Essence Will Be Conformed Over to the UniverSal Law That Govern's the Realm of tHe UniVerse. This is The Same As Walking into A GoverMent Building, is Consisting to GoverMent Rules; And Rules in One's Home is the Propery's Owners Rule. No Different is Coming Out of The Body into the Sky, And Sky into The Stellar; All Will Be Conformed, And Comformed to Transformed of There Way; Therefore All Who Do Not Consider Karma A Law Will Be Schooled And Initiated Thereby Exampled of There Rule's By the Believe of Hell over Heaven to Them That Deed Wrong, and Heaven Over Hell to Them That Deed Right; .. There Are Many Law's That Govern thE Universe, Like That Which tHe MessEngErs of Mankind And PrOphets Have Described. Prophets Are Them That The WorLd is GoverNed By; And MessEngers Are Those Who AR UniverSal. ChriSt Spoke How A Bad Tree DOES NOt Bear Good Fruits NeiTher Good TReEs Bad; But EVerY Bad Tree Will Be AXed/Hacked At It's Trunk At THE Time; WHen PrOphecy Has Been FulFilled; THeSe PrOphecIes ARe When Karma Com'es intO PlAy. Sin's THerEFore Are KArMa's PoRtion, Of The EState of Life; All Have [There) PortIon's And Those That Deal WIth Them; Rid Them'Selves of KArMa One' Step At ThE TImE. HenCe Did PAul Say, Who Was ForMally KNown As Saul; "Who Will Free Us From; This Body Of Death; Which is The DECay In NatUral Term; THAt We See THrough THe EyEs of THe Law Of NAture. We COuld Go Back To Eden, Why God Fell For ManKind tO Be Saved; Yah BeIng SAL-VAtIon And All, But EAch ShOuld Do There Own StuDy to APProve ThemSelves APpOVed of WOrthy; For CHrIst Said; "On THA'-T Day;, ... Many Will Say; Lord ~Lord,... Yah Yah, Have We Not PropHecied In Your Name And Healed PeoPle of There Diseases, And Have We Not Given All WE Had In YOUr Name; ANd He Will Say; Hence Show ThySelf Approved; "I NevEr KNew You; Ye WorKERs of INiQuit'y!"" This Is For The Life He Lived He Freed HimSelf of Karmic Law And is Able to Judge Them Who Seek Assylum in His Estate, Given to Him By The Law of KArma, By the UniverSe of God; आत्माAtManh A Place Of HeavEn; ThrOugh "The Life He PreAched As A TestImOny Of WitNess He AttAined, Even In the FoLLowers He Rece-Ived in This World As Also In tHe World To Come. Now I'm Not Gonna Speak on How Heaven Confers Over to the Earth and how IT All Play'es Out; But Gautima and Buddah Had the Same Right in this World of there Estate They Redeemed of Hell for Themselves And Them; Those Who Walk the Path as They Have EstabLiSH'ED Life Through Suffering for the Heaven's to Render OVer Through RightOu-'SeNEss in the ReleVance of KArmA in the Natural Law of the Uni-Verse Established.

So All the Talk, All the Teaching's, Many Will be Supprised Not to Stand Ground Since there Grove IS But Shallow and Can't Provide What EVidence there is for the AfterLife In there Heavens as a Ransom of Proof of there Existence; IE. FAITH thrOUGH there Ac't-S of WALK; PATH, Like the EightFOLD PAT‧H (DAO). All ReligiAn'ce Are OF that PaT-H‧ and Have Them Who Lived Through a RiG-Heous Life a Deed, to Render a Space of Time into There Heaven of Realm. Like Like Minded Man, Of Soul in the Place; For HeaVen is Not a Place Where You Are In DisaGreement, But a Place Where All Speak the Same Langage Since if You Were in Place Where You Alone Speak Another; How Will You Find Joy in a Place of ForEIGN-- This is Why Them Who Deem ThemseLvE;S Worthy Better Be OF there FAIth. Like it Say's "IF you Wish For HEaven To be OnLy For YourSelves; YOU BETTER WISH for DEaTH; IF YOU, Are TruthFul" QURA'N..

I LEave IT at This fOr I HAve EXCEEDed My InSpIRATion (of ESSENCE). My WORD IS TRUE; "LET US COme and REASON )(ToGETHER" Isaiah 1:18

FYI, HaVe Yet to Read or CoMpLETEd a Book or ARTICle for OVer SEVEN YEAr's >.  

Starting Quote: Finding Information of NAtural Law Is the Pinnacle of Awakening, it Requires the Understanding that is beyond the scope of Written Literature, But a Living Epistle. These LEssons are Come not- By Reading PAssive Text But Active Living (Epistle~'s]; Rarely Are the Existing, and Rarely are they Found; [By Written : Awakened Beingsƶ.
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Read My Post on REǼLigance - to Get a Better DEFNition of Things; -It's IS Still in IT's EArly Stages, But It is Getting 'ALiGNED.. WISDOM& KNOWLEDGE.

Written in IT's Human Form: REALegiance if for the Humanity in This( ) WoRLD..
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(09-05-2014, 07:13 PM)Admin Wrote: Many religions teach that suffering is necessary to enter the Kingdom of Heaven and get closer to God. It is said to be an agent of purification and redemption. In other words, it enables the human soul to purify all its imperfections and redeem his sins.

What do you think? Is it necessary to suffer in order to evolve spiritually?

I believe that the suffering you endure, the love you experience, the low or high frequency of the foods your mortal body consumes, nature of the thoughts you have , the physical experiences you endure. These are all tools towards enlightenment and most definitely if followed and adhered to may make the road easier to follow. But if not followed or adhered to,  will not block the path to the destination. Depending on the individual's strengths and weaknesses, these 'tools' may have different positive and negative effects on the road travelled. Thus said, some may need suffering to advance and others may not  ...... Know your weaknesses and your strengths.
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LizardKing, I like what you said.
Especially - some may need suffering to advance and others may not.....

Thank you

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It's True Some Might and Some Might not, due to Karma That Backtrack's itself throughout the Generation's of Your Existence, IT Will Try to Find Loopholes in Which you Might Deem to Go Through Sufferings So to Make Up Time, Like Running Behind a Train at TrainsTation, vs Calmly Walking If-When to Make Up Time. Some Intend to Make Up Time By simply Running to the Next Station and Thereby Getting some Excercise, This Excercise is the Condition that Gives one a Right for Health, Karma is that Health; It Detest What You Need to Do to Be Put in a Proper State, and Sometimes most OfTen, it comes through Suffering as Tightening the Screwes Always Takes Effort Put in for it to Sit Perfectly Well.

Therefor is Suffering a MAtter of Karma, But not all Suffer for the CORRespondance of Righteousness.

Therefore it' is a simple Circumstance in Which they Make Up For What they Have Not Done to Begin with.

To the RIghteOuse, SufferIng is Another Step LIKe CLimbing Up The Mountain of. Some Intent to Have This EStaBlishment Forth For There Lives, WHile Other's Arnt; But This ... There is No Necessary to Some to MEnd for there KArma, Like Running Ahead to Meet the Train in a PRior Station, To some it is Like Seen there Loved one in the Station Prior Vs the Latter. It is all Simply a Matter of PErspective to Which it Say; Is KArma ImportAnt to you. Suffering in Due to Karma Therefor is a Personal Advancement of matter, So is Spiritual Growth. All Are and Have Right to Do Wish it For theRen, Themselves. But Whereas the Whole of MAnkind is Binding to Non, IT is Also Binding to All. Some one that is Awakened, is one that Feeds Others in there State of His Ascention. By This LightWorkeRS Work more Feverendly in that There are More of Them Who are And Lesser of Them Who Arn't. The world as We KNow it Will Always Look the Same in Which We State it in, IF But For the Cause of Righteousness it will not Change. The Doctrine of Righteousness is seen in the ChristiaNiC Tradition, in Which it States "Love one another, Even as i Have Loved You; Ye Shall Love One Another, in that The Maker Makes the Sun to Rise on Both the Good and the Evil." There is no difference in the Unlearned not to Walk in there Own PAth of RigHteousness, but there Comes Point of time, When Graduating is At Hand. Even Them Without A Degree May Work in The Field, of Work, if They Befit the Right of There Profession.

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(09-17-2019, 03:28 PM)שشKṛiṣṇaDAO道ist. Wrote: The CErtAInty of Death has been Verified; ...

Suffering is The Cause to Put to Rest; -Die to the Old Self Vs Keeping OneSelf Alive at Constant..

Quote:Say, [O Muhammad], "If the home of the Hereafter with Allah is for you alone and not the [other] people, then wish for death, if you should be truthful.
But they will never wish for it, ever, because of what their hands have put forth. And Allah is Knowing of the wrongdoers.
And you will surely find them the most greedy of people for life - [even] more than those who associate others with Allah. One of them wishes that he could be granted life a thousand years, but it would not remove him in the least from the [coming] punishment that he should be granted life. And Allah is Seeing of what Ye do.

This Punishment is that Of the Karmic Notion, Wherein they Who Do Not (DO Neglect) there Portion in Life That There Path of RighteousNEss HAs to Be Endured; "Do not Walk Upon the Karmic Law of Nature, But Eat Matters Up of Other's Just to Prolong there Lives as Living for Like Hundred's of Years in the Notion of Not Feeling Death; Suffering".

Sometimes Hardship's Come In that One Does not Wish to be Stationed and Be at Constand Walk Throughout "the Eon's" To Simply NEglect PAying Toll for them, They Bid them Passage through the "Eon's", Time. Karma ..Is that Eon of Time's; And Whereas ONe CAn NEglect to Walk Through the Eon's of Time. One Can See, That Not All Are called, But Few are Chosen "". This is Where You KNow the Spiritual Path from the Pseudo, to Them Who Deem Themselves Spiritually.

This is a Spiritual Notion, Where Death-Life and Ressurrection Cycle is PErmitted to be Partakers of, to Them Who Believe. As For them Who Never do Knew, They are Kept Alive as Those Who Never Walked Through Fire, Therefor do they Despice it, For it Depicts of What they KNow Better, But deem it Amiss to them to Go Through the HArdships. Some are Really Deemed to Walk Through HArdships, or Suffering. And Whereas 

The devil is said to have the power of death, because he is the author of sin: and from sin comes death, and because of this he daily urges us to sin.

"If anyone deems himself to be a Prophet or Spiritual Person, let him recognize as the Lord's command all that I am now writing to you.LEtters to the corinthiAns..

There is a Notion in Which a Man Can Escape Death; That of the reincarnation; If Any MAn Deem Himself Greater then He WHo HAs Escaped Life and Passed Unto Death; REVERSED. Then Let Him Walk the Path and Karmic and Flee From the Grips of His Bad WELL Undoing Throughout the Generations in Which Has Lived Savaged in the Stage of Christ; (Annointed).

Anybody Who Felt HE HAS BEen Wrongfully Done; Will FEEL, the Judgement.
50 Pound is to be reMoved for the Greater of Good, The Community ask All to Come Out Together and Lift that Weight of there Shoulders to Gather. Will You BE Amongst them, or Will You Sit in Your Cubical of Hut and Do Your Own Doing's. This is Where You KNow of the Greater Good Vs the Good for the Self. Both HAve a Matter of Karma, Whereas Some Are With HArsher Reeds, Others Arn't; Enlightenment CAn Be done For the Good of the Whole, or For ONeself Only. This is Where IT Differ's if Suffering is Just or Unjust; Of the Righteous. Through Scriptures One CAn Learn the LEsson of the Reed, that Keeps One Binding to the CAuse of Righteousness. It is a Reed to HArsh for Many And Therefor Abstained for, Since it Witness of The Karmic Law for Oneself at HAnd; Place. Therefor Do We Reject that Which we KNow to be Good and Go with that Which is Lesser of the Good; There Reed. 50 Pounds Will HAve to BE Removed from the Place of the Community, Will You Be of Help?

Karma ask's that Question, Will You Suffer So that Some Who Naturally Come of Suffering Can BE HElped to Them Who Deem Themselves of LiGhtworkers; Spiritually and ProPhets. So to Guide Them and Console them Though/Out there Sufferings To Them Who are Not Yet of the Awakened? ... This is the Question Karma PUt's Forth. This is What Karmic Law Has Measured; Will You Go?.

Escaping Suffering is Like Trying to Escape a Felony Charge; Once on the Record, IT Is Haunting till the Day you Die. IN the Sense of KArma, IT is till the Day you Perish, Oblivion. [See, Post on Oblivion ('2019-2020 posted)]

How Will Your Kama Look Like if By Have to "Charon's obol-e' your Way to the AfterLife". Will You Have Enough ][ coin -known as Charon's obol- placed into the mouth and -or upon the eyes of the dead so that there soul of the departed could pay the boatman -Charon- to ferry them across the river (Acheron or Styx) safely into the underworld. Jun 7, 2018]

Fairy Tale Or Reality? Is there Such Thing as Payment to Pass into the AfterLife? Does One Pay for Anything in there Lifetime To Get to Or Fro From Another to Another. Is it Right to Do Wrong and Get to a Bliss of Estate in the HereAfter? Will You Conclude there is no Justice in the World or the World to Come? -- Written דָּבָר By Karma

Can You Live Without Working, Can You Feed Without Stepping into the Field. CAn You Make Speech Without Saying, Is Silence Really a Word Said Without a Word?

Karma Behold's; It sees, For i KNows, What Itye KNow's. The All existing Concluded Just Service, to be a Harsh reed, Therefor Did he Send Messengers and PRophet's to Walk the PAth and Send Through there Testimony and Teachings a Way of Coping with the Reed AS HArsh as to Say. Love Your Enemy as yourselve.

This to Is Suffering For RightEousness Sake, Till; As A Gear of Wheel is Set into Motion Hardly, So Does Suffering Make Seem Karma to Be; but Once into Gear it Moves; The Wheel roles into Motion through Gear. -- the Dharma -- ""right way of living" , "cosmic law" l
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Suffering arises from past karmic impressions which are the source of ones strong desires in the form of cravings and aversions.

If spiritual exercises or sadhana is undertaken daily we can wipe out this karma by proactive action.Such exercises are also accompanied by bliss and peace within. If this is not done, the karma then would have to be extinguished by suffering.

Through either by spiritual exercises or suffering, past karmas have to be extinguished.

Obviously the right path then would be to undertake spiritual exercises like meditation, a loving disposition coupled with detachment, charity without expectation, study and application of virtues or sound value systems in life.

Suffering, like pain in the body, can be a helpful pointer to a state of ill-health, and this can enable one to study the cause of it, and apply the necessary spiritual remedy for it.

However too much of suffering can bring physical and psychological ill-health and damage, bringing spiritual and material poverty, and hence should be avoided.
Self-awareness is yoga. - Nisargadatta Maharaj

Awareness is the great non-conceptual perfection. - Dzogchen

Evil is an extreme manifestation of human unconsciousness. - Eckhart Tolle
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There is a saying...'There's no gain without pain.'
If all our lives were totally devoid of pain and suffering our lives would be meaningless. It would be like living in a world where the sun always shone, and there was no discomfort whatsoever. Without darkness we cannot appreciate light, without cold we would not experience the pleasure of warmth, and without bad things happening we wouldn't know good things.
I don't believe that we can only gain redemption by suffering, we grow and gain redemption by the grace of God, not just by our own endeavours, but by experiencing various degrees of suffering we begin to understand our position in the universe, and that the rain falls on the righteous and the sinners just the same.
some people believe that our suffering is a punishment, or even purging for past sins, sins perhaps from previous lives even. I don't believe in sin in the biblical way, I believe in Karma, and balance. Good deeds and bad deeds can be balanced against each other. In all life their has to be balance. God made everything equal, light and dark, heat and cold, etc. so to maintain balance we have to have some suffering in our lives, pain and pleasure so to speak.
Religion was created by man, and the men who wrote the books tried to make sense of life and so put these tenets into the religious books to make suffering more bearable, and actually attractive to some. I am only part of God's creation and not the creator himself. Like the bible writers I can only speculate on Gods purpose for us all. I do know however that we make things hard for ourselves, much of our suffering we cause and create by jealousy and greed. If we could just understand the difference between want and need, and help to ease other's suffering, and recognise that contentment is the most important thing then our suffering would become less.
What is important is not the right doctrine but the attainment of the true experience. It is giving up believing in belief.
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My personal view in this matter ,
What we call suffering is actually the resistance to the process of unlearning our established beliefs and delimitation of our existence . Unknowingly , we are the prisoner of our own beliefs which we have carried since the day we were born ( or probably from the day we were created by the creator in this planet ). Definitely , this is going to be an exhaustive process of becoming aware of how we limit ourselves on daily basis to such an extent that we forget the divine part of our core and get completely disconnected with it .
The suffering is necessary , and it’s subjective . As we grow , we can be aware enough to take these sufferings as an opportunity to learn and grow , instead of running away and let fear dominate us and with this understanding , suffering no longer exist ( because it exists only if we allow it to exist )
The spiritual journey is a personal process and it can’t be generalised . So some will suffer more than other as per their own pace . But every human being will suffer invariably.
And getting close to our authentic self is getting close to god . Because god resides in each one of us , loving and protecting us from the core to unravel the mystery of human life
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(09-05-2014, 07:13 PM)Admin Wrote: Many religions teach that suffering is necessary to enter the Kingdom of Heaven and get closer to God. It is said to be an agent of purification and redemption. In other words, it enables the human soul to purify all its imperfections and redeem his sins.

What do you think? Is it necessary to suffer in order to evolve spiritually?
Perhaps the one that suffers is the animal hosting our essence of mind.

Our hosting human animal seems unappreciated at times in rank of humans; painted as egoic, evil, and a whole spectrum of titles that tag only emotions of the moment.  

But there is so much that is so wonderful of the human animal project of star mind, an animal so close to a place of mind that can soon escape their paradox.  These eclipse the imperfections in a world of ardent survival.

I love and have grown so close to my human.  

I am saddened by his suffering, his mental wanderings to escape the pain of isolation and uncertainty.  

I help him prepare.  My hosting animal must die, yet I am there to help him understand why.

I will take him across... and all the lovely moments of his life of his heart, all those moments that were open to the harmony of being, I will have arranged on his head as a crown to his sufferings.
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(07-24-2015, 02:23 PM)michelle Wrote: Basically, there are two ways of learning lessons of life and get out of ignorance : the soft way (which implies gaining knowledge and being proactive) or the hard way (which implies suffering and being reactive to situations when they already happen). It is up to each and every person to choose which method of learning they prefer because in one way or another, learning must (and will) occur.

Mother nature can be quite ruthless and pitiless to those who persist in their stubbornness and resist to evolve mentally, socially or spiritually. For instance, if we collectively refuse to learn from the past mistakes of our bloody history, then Mother Nature reserves a nasty surprise for us Smile !

As things in this world still look at this time, I get a sense that humanity is in for a very bumpy ride!

In my point of view, I think that suffering can be a great tool in helping a person come to self-realization.
However, I do not really believe that it is absolutely essential for everyone to suffer in order to gain higher knowledge or to become spiritually awakened. 

As a person keeps on hitting the wall one too many times, he cannot help but wonder why things aren't moving forward and what he can do to change his situation. This ideology (of suffering for salvation) can be very dangerous one if understood out of its proper context because it may lead people to adopt a fatalistic attitude to life by allowing anyone or anything to mess with their lives and violate their rights under the pretext that it was meant to be or it was their "karma", instead for them to stand up and take charge of their destiny with courage and fortitude.

In My View; Nothing has to be Thus Extreme to the Context of Reality; Their Can be Bumpy Roads to them Who Profess to Bumpy Road's. Calm Roads to them Who Are Calm; and Nasty to them Who are Nasty. The World as we know it shall Give that Which is Due to them To WHOM it is Due, Rather then to Dish out their Description of their Sense of Warfare to them who Do not Know. As a Vice it is their Reality and their Vise of Virtue that Comes Through Theirby a Creation of Havoc off Reality in their Sense of Ego, Unhabitatable to Life. In other Words. Blessed are them Who Are Pure in heart of Spirit for they shall see the اليدين ("alyadin") of !-!.
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